Valdis, You got to be polite with people.Not everybody is as smart as you, but they would like to contribute. Just keep in in mind that there's no future for linux without such people. You cannot keep bullying everybody like this. On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Surendra Patil <surendra.tux@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Kaur,
I would recommend you take a look at this videos by Greg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLBrBBImJt4. He has explained how to get started to contribute Linux Kernel.
Good Luck !!!
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 10:31 AM, <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:07:44 -0800, Satwantjit Kaur said:
I am a final year B.Tech (CSE) student from NIT Jalandhar. I like programming and I know C and C++ programming languages. I have worked on IPC and socket programming in C/C++. I wish to take up a project in Linux Kernel development and contribute to it. Can somebody guide me further?
I'll be blunt. Unless you *already* have an interest or desire in a particular part of the kernel (for instance, filesystems, or networking, or memory management, etc), you probably aren't a good fit for actually contributing to the Linux kernel. You might be able to hack up some code that will satisfy a professor for a project, but actual contributions are usually held to a higher standard.
Consider the difference between "I'd like to write a book, but have no idea what to write about, can somebody suggest whether to write fantasy, or a romance, or non-fiction about sports, or something", and "I'm thinking about a story about the adventures of a Roman centurion fighting the Gauls, but need help making it historically accurate".
Pretty much everybody will agree that the first book is doomed, because the author obviously isn't connected that much to their project. The second? That has a *much* higher chance of producing a good story, simply because the author has a vision for the project that they can stick to.
And that affects mentoring - nobody who knows anything about writing fantasy novels will be interested in helping somebody who hasn't even decided if they want to write about fantasy or scuba diving. Somebody who knows they want to write about a Roman centurion fighting the Gauls? At that point, it's worth the 5 minutes for a Roman history expert to give suggestions and references to the way things were then....
And the Linux kernel is the same way.
Now, if you have a professor that's *insisting* on a Linux kernel project, that's an entirely different problem. ;)
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-- ------------------------------ Best, Surendra Patil
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On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:38 PM, srinivas bakki <srinivas.bakki@gmail.com> wrote:
Valdis, You got to be polite with people.Not everybody is as smart as you, but they would like to contribute. Just keep in in mind that there's no future for linux without such people. You cannot keep bullying everybody like this.
Talking about polite, you are Top posting, how rude is that?
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Surendra Patil <surendra.tux@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Kaur,
I would recommend you take a look at this videos by Greg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLBrBBImJt4. He has explained how to get started to contribute Linux Kernel.
Good Luck !!!
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 10:31 AM, <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:07:44 -0800, Satwantjit Kaur said:
I am a final year B.Tech (CSE) student from NIT Jalandhar. I like programming and I know C and C++ programming languages. I have worked on IPC and socket programming in C/C++. I wish to take up a project in Linux Kernel development and contribute to it. Can somebody guide me further?
I'll be blunt. Unless you *already* have an interest or desire in a particular part of the kernel (for instance, filesystems, or networking, or memory management, etc), you probably aren't a good fit for actually contributing to the Linux kernel. You might be able to hack up some code that will satisfy a professor for a project, but actual contributions are usually held to a higher standard.
Consider the difference between "I'd like to write a book, but have no idea what to write about, can somebody suggest whether to write fantasy, or a romance, or non-fiction about sports, or something", and "I'm thinking about a story about the adventures of a Roman centurion fighting the Gauls, but need help making it historically accurate".
Pretty much everybody will agree that the first book is doomed, because the author obviously isn't connected that much to their project. The second? That has a *much* higher chance of producing a good story, simply because the author has a vision for the project that they can stick to.
And that affects mentoring - nobody who knows anything about writing fantasy novels will be interested in helping somebody who hasn't even decided if they want to write about fantasy or scuba diving. Somebody who knows they want to write about a Roman centurion fighting the Gauls? At that point, it's worth the 5 minutes for a Roman history expert to give suggestions and references to the way things were then....
And the Linux kernel is the same way.
Now, if you have a professor that's *insisting* on a Linux kernel project, that's an entirely different problem. ;)
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-- ------------------------------ Best, Surendra Patil
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
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-- Thank you Warm Regards Anuz
Anuz, Sorry about that. But am also sorry that you could find a problem as silly as that. We have a greater problem at hand. Sorry, Srinivas Bakki
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:16 PM, srinivas bakki <srinivas.bakki@gmail.com> wrote:
Anuz, Sorry about that. But am also sorry that you could find a problem as silly as that. We have a greater problem at hand.
As a kernel hacker, no problem is silly like that. All problem needs to be discussed in open. I have been on this list for about 8+ years and Robert and Vlad are the most helpful people on the list. I have not seen Mulyadi for a while but he was one of the top posters besides these two. You on the other hand have not helped one bit in this case besides just criticising them.
Original poster has made no effort whatsoever to actually look into it more than knowing keywords like kernel hacking. To begin with development, one quick google search will reveal the basic books you need to read. There is shit tonne of information on kernelnewbies about kernel development, but that doesn't seem to be mentioned by OP. Now, this mentality of spoon feeding people, who want to essentially write code for CORE of an Operating system, which by very definition is one of the most complex piece of software in existence, is neither good to the poster nor to the community. To be frank, there was a lot of good advice in Vlad's mail except for the fact that it was masked in clever banter. This type of mail spring up every month without fail, where a newbie will just ask for help without a proper subject line, without a proper issue, heck sometimes there is not even a real question. Most of these newbies never turn up with a real question, let alone a problem which need to be discussed or learned. On main kernel list, this type of mails will not even be addressed. I would recommend that if you really want to help OP, then suggest them with the help and not criticise people, who are really trying to help here. -- Thank you Warm Regards Anuz
No intentions to criticize(if you think so) really. You got to mature. I respect Valdis/Robert. I know mulyadi had been the ultimate contributor. ofcourse iam nobody here but got to say that you are also nobody to preach me. We are all here to learn and let's do it the way it's supposed to be. On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar < chambilkethakur@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:16 PM, srinivas bakki <srinivas.bakki@gmail.com> wrote:
Anuz, Sorry about that. But am also sorry that you could find a problem as silly as that. We have a greater problem at hand.
As a kernel hacker, no problem is silly like that. All problem needs to be discussed in open. I have been on this list for about 8+ years and Robert and Vlad are the most helpful people on the list. I have not seen Mulyadi for a while but he was one of the top posters besides these two. You on the other hand have not helped one bit in this case besides just criticising them.
Original poster has made no effort whatsoever to actually look into it more than knowing keywords like kernel hacking. To begin with development, one quick google search will reveal the basic books you need to read. There is shit tonne of information on kernelnewbies about kernel development, but that doesn't seem to be mentioned by OP. Now, this mentality of spoon feeding people, who want to essentially write code for CORE of an Operating system, which by very definition is one of the most complex piece of software in existence, is neither good to the poster nor to the community. To be frank, there was a lot of good advice in Vlad's mail except for the fact that it was masked in clever banter.
This type of mail spring up every month without fail, where a newbie will just ask for help without a proper subject line, without a proper issue, heck sometimes there is not even a real question. Most of these newbies never turn up with a real question, let alone a problem which need to be discussed or learned. On main kernel list, this type of mails will not even be addressed.
I would recommend that if you really want to help OP, then suggest them with the help and not criticise people, who are really trying to help here. -- Thank you Warm Regards Anuz
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:38 PM, srinivas bakki <srinivas.bakki@gmail.com> wrote:
No intentions to criticize(if you think so) really. You got to mature. I respect Valdis/Robert. I know mulyadi had been the ultimate contributor. ofcourse iam nobody here but got to say that you are also nobody to preach me. We are all here to learn and let's do it the way it's supposed to be.
And yet again, you are Top-posting. I am beginning to think, you are probably trolling, and I should have ignored you right from the beginning.
*>>resending because not sent to all.* *Apologies for the noise. *
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar < chambilkethakur@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:16 PM, srinivas bakki <srinivas.bakki@gmail.com
wrote:
Anuz, Sorry about that. But am also sorry that you could find a problem as silly as that. We have a greater problem at hand.
As a kernel hacker, no problem is silly like that. All problem needs to be discussed in open. I have been on this list for about 8+ years and Robert and Vlad are the most helpful people on the list. I have not seen Mulyadi for a while but he was one of the top posters besides these two. You on the other hand have not helped one bit in this case besides just criticising them.
Original poster has made no effort whatsoever to actually look into it more than knowing keywords like kernel hacking. To begin with development, one quick google search will reveal the basic books you need to read. There is shit tonne of information on kernelnewbies about kernel development, but that doesn't seem to be mentioned by OP. Now, this mentality of spoon feeding people, who want to essentially write code for CORE of an Operating system, which by very definition is one of the most complex piece of software in existence, is neither good to the poster nor to the community. To be frank, there was a lot of good advice in Vlad's mail except for the fact that it was masked in clever banter.
This type of mail spring up every month without fail, where a newbie will just ask for help without a proper subject line, without a proper issue, heck sometimes there is not even a real question. Most of these newbies never turn up with a real question, let alone a problem which need to be discussed or learned. On main kernel list, this type of mails will not even be addressed.
I would recommend that if you really want to help OP, then suggest them with the help and not criticise people, who are really trying to help here. -- Thank you Warm Regards Anuz
-- Thank you Warm Regards Anuz
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015, Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar wrote:
I have been on this list for about 8+ years and Robert and Vlad are the most helpful people on the list...
while i appreciate the compliment, i have been embarrassingly absent for a couple years, working my tail off. but i plan on becoming more regular in the near future. in the meantime, in case anyone's interested, i still have a slightly outdated intro to kernel programming here: http://crashcourse.ca/introduction-linux-kernel-programming/introduction-lin... which i hope to update over the next several weeks. i used to charge for it, but quite some time ago, i just open-sourced it, so you can help yourself to it but ***please***, don't tell me how out-of-date it seems ... i already know that. :-) rday -- ======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca Twitter: http://twitter.com/rpjday LinkedIn: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rpjday ========================================================================
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 01:29:10PM -0800, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
http://crashcourse.ca/introduction-linux-kernel-programming/introduction-lin...
Additionally, here are a couple more resources that I've personally found helpful in my studies of Linux kernel development: - The Eudyptula Challenge (http://eudyptula-challenge.org/); - Greg KH's "Linux Kernel in a Nutshell" (http://www.kroah.com/lkn/); - Robert's own "Linux Kernel Development". There's an utterly mind-boggling amount of free -- or, at the very least, affordable -- information and resources out there; it's one of the benefits of our field and, I believe, of working in open-source in general. As a fellow newbie to Linux kernel development, I definitely recommend taking full advantage of it. As Valdis, Robert, and company have said, simply showing up out of the blue and asking something along the lines of "can someone help me get started" comes off sounding dangeorously close to asking to be spoon-fed -- not a good impression to make, especially a first one. -- Jonathan Jin jjin.me
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015, Jonathan Jin wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 01:29:10PM -0800, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
http://crashcourse.ca/introduction-linux-kernel-programming/introduction-lin...
Additionally, here are a couple more resources that I've personally found helpful in my studies of Linux kernel development:
- The Eudyptula Challenge (http://eudyptula-challenge.org/); - Greg KH's "Linux Kernel in a Nutshell" (http://www.kroah.com/lkn/); - Robert's own "Linux Kernel Development".
as an editor/proofreader of the last two of those above, i can safely say that they're both starting to show their age but are still pretty darned good. i would also *massively* recommend the freely available online courseware from the free electrons folks: http://free-electrons.com/docs/ rday -- ======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca Twitter: http://twitter.com/rpjday LinkedIn: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rpjday ========================================================================
On Jan 26, 2015 3:20 AM, "Robert P. J. Day" <rpjday@crashcourse.ca> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015, Jonathan Jin wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 01:29:10PM -0800, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
http://crashcourse.ca/introduction-linux-kernel-programming/introduction-lin...
Additionally, here are a couple more resources that I've personally found helpful in my studies of Linux kernel development:
- The Eudyptula Challenge (http://eudyptula-challenge.org/); - Greg KH's "Linux Kernel in a Nutshell" (http://www.kroah.com/lkn/); - Robert's own "Linux Kernel Development".
as an editor/proofreader of the last two of those above, i can safely say that they're both starting to show their age but are still pretty darned good. i would also *massively* recommend the freely available online courseware from the free electrons folks:
http://free-electrons.com/docs/
rday
--
======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca
Twitter: http://twitter.com/rpjday LinkedIn: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rpjday ========================================================================
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Hi Satwanjit, If you are doing for final year project, my suggestion is develop some userspace tools which is not available and useful one. Probably getting info from kernel and display some info etc. Right now I am not getting any idea, but developing a tool is good idea. U can identify. I am mentioning above one because by haven't mentioned any kernel topics u know. To learn Linux kernel development. Please google it u will definitely get it or search in this ML. A lot of people replied for the same question 1000 times :). Thanks
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015, Jeshwanth Kumar N K wrote:
Hi Satwanjit,
If you are doing for final year project, my suggestion is develop some userspace tools which is not available and useful one. Probably getting info from kernel and display some info etc. Right now I am not getting any idea, but developing a tool is good idea. U can identify.
I am mentioning above one because by haven't mentioned any kernel topics u know.
what's wrong with ftrace? but seriously, you know what newcomers might get some value out of doing if they want to contribute? writing some really, really good documentation or tutorials. the mainline kernel developers are, unsurprisingly, tres busy doing, you know, developing, and often the code gets ahead of the docs. so if you want, pick a subsystem, read up on it and see if it needs improved documentation. then write it. there are lots of benefits to this. first, there is *always* a desperate need for better documentation, and absolutely *no* *one* will discourage you from writing docs. second, you can't really f**k things up if you stick to documentation, and because it represents non-functional changes, you're way more likely to get your patches applied than if you were trying to contribute code. and third (without naming names), if you just want to start getting your name into the kernel git log (and there's nothing wrong with having that ambition since it's something you can brag about), it doesn't get much easier than updating the in-kernel docs. if you want a specific project, here's one. start combing through the Documentation/ directory and identifying the stuff that is craptastically out of date. there's a lot of docs there, and piles of it is suffering from neglect. some of it could stand to be updated, while some of it could stand to be deleted entirely. so start reading, and comparing that documentation to the current kernel source, and start submitting changes to update it. there ... is that specific enough of a suggestion? rday -- ======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca Twitter: http://twitter.com/rpjday LinkedIn: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rpjday ========================================================================
On Monday, January 26, 2015, Robert P. J. Day <rpjday@crashcourse.ca> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015, Jeshwanth Kumar N K wrote:
Hi Satwanjit,
If you are doing for final year project, my suggestion is develop some userspace tools which is not available and useful one. Probably getting info from kernel and display some info etc. Right now I am not getting any idea, but developing a tool is good idea. U can identify.
I am mentioning above one because by haven't mentioned any kernel topics u know.
what's wrong with ftrace? but seriously, you know what newcomers might get some value out of doing if they want to contribute? writing some really, really good documentation or tutorials.
the mainline kernel developers are, unsurprisingly, tres busy doing, you know, developing, and often the code gets ahead of the docs. so if you want, pick a subsystem, read up on it and see if it needs improved documentation. then write it. there are lots of benefits to this.
first, there is *always* a desperate need for better documentation, and absolutely *no* *one* will discourage you from writing docs.
second, you can't really f**k things up if you stick to documentation, and because it represents non-functional changes, you're way more likely to get your patches applied than if you were trying to contribute code.
and third (without naming names), if you just want to start getting your name into the kernel git log (and there's nothing wrong with having that ambition since it's something you can brag about), it doesn't get much easier than updating the in-kernel docs.
if you want a specific project, here's one. start combing through the Documentation/ directory and identifying the stuff that is craptastically out of date. there's a lot of docs there, and piles of it is suffering from neglect. some of it could stand to be updated, while some of it could stand to be deleted entirely.
so start reading, and comparing that documentation to the current kernel source, and start submitting changes to update it. there ... is that specific enough of a suggestion?
rday
--
Robert, Documentation is really good idea :).
======================================================================== Robert P. J. Day Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA http://crashcourse.ca
Twitter: http://twitter.com/rpjday LinkedIn: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rpjday ========================================================================
-- Regards Jeshwanth Kumar N K Bangalore, India
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 16:29:00 -0800, "Robert P. J. Day" said:
what's wrong with ftrace? but seriously, you know what newcomers might get some value out of doing if they want to contribute? writing some really, really good documentation or tutorials.
If somebody were to do a really good "Top 25 perf/ftrace tricks/recipes" for the best incantations for common use cases, they'd have a hard time buying themselves a beer at a gathering of Linux geeks. ;) For example: "I don't care the exact function, but which .o or .so is my program spending its time in?" (And yes, this *does* come up a lot -for large programs, there's usually no one single function that burns enough CPU time to dominate - but if you look at the top 5 shared libraries, you can pretty much tell "Yeah, those 5 are where I expect it to be burning a lot of time" or "Wow, why is *that* library I've never heard of at number 2 on the list?"...)
Hi All, How about working on ARM development board. We get to work much close to the latest kernel and features that are build for SOC. More over we can maintain and test out changes on development boards and submit our changes to LKM. Also it fast way to contribute to the LKM. -Anand Moon On Monday, January 26, 2015 9:17 AM, "Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu" <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote: On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 16:29:00 -0800, "Robert P. J. Day" said:
what's wrong with ftrace? but seriously, you know what newcomers might get some value out of doing if they want to contribute? writing some really, really good documentation or tutorials.
If somebody were to do a really good "Top 25 perf/ftrace tricks/recipes" for the best incantations for common use cases, they'd have a hard time buying themselves a beer at a gathering of Linux geeks. ;) For example: "I don't care the exact function, but which .o or .so is my program spending its time in?" (And yes, this *does* come up a lot -for large programs, there's usually no one single function that burns enough CPU time to dominate - but if you look at the top 5 shared libraries, you can pretty much tell "Yeah, those 5 are where I expect it to be burning a lot of time" or "Wow, why is *that* library I've never heard of at number 2 on the list?"...) _______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
Am 2015-01-26 04:45, schrieb Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 16:29:00 -0800, "Robert P. J. Day" said:
what's wrong with ftrace? but seriously, you know what newcomers might get some value out of doing if they want to contribute? writing some really, really good documentation or tutorials.
If somebody were to do a really good "Top 25 perf/ftrace tricks/recipes" for the best incantations for common use cases, they'd have a hard time buying themselves a beer at a gathering of Linux geeks. ;)
Actually, I was interested in writing something along these lines but in practice, Brendan Gregg (who is amazing) probably has you covered. http://www.brendangregg.com/linuxperf.html Cheers, Silvan
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 01:46:26AM +0530, srinivas bakki wrote:
Anuz, Sorry about that. But am also sorry that you could find a problem as silly as that. We have a greater problem at hand.
I don't think top posting is a silly problem. I think it makes it hard to follow the thread and the archive.
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 08:10:15PM +0000, Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:38 PM, srinivas bakki <srinivas.bakki@gmail.com> wrote:
Valdis, You got to be polite with people.Not everybody is as smart as you, but they would like to contribute. Just keep in in mind that there's no future for linux without such people. You cannot keep bullying everybody like this.
Talking about polite, you are Top posting, how rude is that?
I thought the post was very helpfull and not rude at all. I guess we all perceive things differently.
John de la Garza <john@jjdev.com> writes:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 08:10:15PM +0000, Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:38 PM, srinivas bakki <srinivas.bakki@gmail.com> wrote:
Valdis, You got to be polite with people.Not everybody is as smart as you, but they would like to contribute. Just keep in in mind that there's no future for linux without such people. You cannot keep bullying everybody like this.
Talking about polite, you are Top posting, how rude is that?
I thought the post was very helpfull and not rude at all. I guess we all perceive things differently.
This document is written for the Debian project, but I believe it's a good guide to any open mailing list: https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct I am pretty sure all participants in this thread are trying to help. But I will ask you all to consider the "In case of problems" section of that document before continuing this discussion. In particular: "Assume good faith; it is more likely that participants are unaware of their bad behaviour than that they intentionally try to degrade the quality of the discussion." In my experience, you will miss a lot if you disregard articles you find "rude". Direct and concise advice might sometimes come out harsher than it was meant. It doesn't make the advice any less worth. On the contrary. Thanks, Bjørn
participants (10)
-
Anand Moon -
Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar -
Bjørn Mork -
Jeshwanth Kumar N K -
John de la Garza -
Jonathan Jin -
Robert P. J. Day -
Silvan Jegen -
srinivas bakki -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu