Re: Request Chinese mail list and FrontPage
On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 01:40:23PM -0400, swalow swalow wrote:
Sorry for being a newb and speaking out but maybe the reason is that this mail list is in English and they don't feel comfortable answering/asking in it? There might be other reasons that my Western educated brain cannot grasp. If it's not too much work, why not give them a chance? Worst case they will come back here and be forced to ask the question in English. Best case more people will be involved in the conversation.
Replying in public. My vision is that if some nice people of Chinese origination AND qualified as experienced kernel developers would have time and habit to reply newbie questions on kernelnewbies mailing list, they would often reply also to questions posted in English, because - to succeed as kernel dev you must have good English, so good kernel devs all know English well, and - it would be unfair to answer only to your compatriots when a lot of newbies of different nations want help, too. And what I see happening is that no people with Chinese names are answering the questions here. Most of answers come from Greg Kroah-Hartman, who doesn't speak Chinese I guess. However, I'm watching this list just for two weeks, so my conclusion may be wrong.
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Andrey Utkin <andrey_utkin@fastmail.com> wrote:
My vision is that if some nice people of Chinese origination AND qualified as experienced kernel developers would have time and habit to reply newbie questions on kernelnewbies mailing list, they would often reply also to questions posted in English, because - to succeed as kernel dev you must have good English, so good kernel devs all know English well, and - it would be unfair to answer only to your compatriots when a lot of newbies of different nations want help, too.
And what I see happening is that no people with Chinese names are answering the questions here. Most of answers come from Greg Kroah-Hartman, who doesn't speak Chinese I guess. However, I'm watching this list just for two weeks, so my conclusion may be wrong.
Hi, Andrey Utkin Thanks for your advice. I agree that English is very useful when we discuss kernel problems, but it's also necessary for us to have our native language maillist. With this list, we can talk about various topics, even trivial questions about kernel and I believe we can help a lot of Chinese developers. If we can't deal with some difficult problems, we will certainly ask for help in English list. Several years ago, we once had a chinese mail list which domain is http://zh-kernel.org and many Chinese developer, such as Herbert Xu, Wang Cong, Mingming Cao and Bryan Wu, were active in this list. But, it's very pity that this domain is invalid now. That's why I request a mail list. Thanks, Hao Lee
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Andrey Utkin <andrey_utkin@fastmail.com> wrote:
My vision is that if some nice people of Chinese origination AND qualified as experienced kernel developers would have time and habit to reply newbie questions on kernelnewbies mailing list, they would often reply also to questions posted in English, because - to succeed as kernel dev you must have good English, so good kernel devs all know English well, and - it would be unfair to answer only to your compatriots when a lot of newbies of different nations want help, too.
And what I see happening is that no people with Chinese names are answering the questions here. Most of answers come from Greg Kroah-Hartman, who doesn't speak Chinese I guess. However, I'm watching this list just for two weeks, so my conclusion may be wrong.
Hi, Andrey Utkin
Thanks for your advice. I agree that English is very useful when we discuss kernel problems, but it's also necessary for us to have our native language maillist. With this list, we can talk about various topics, even trivial questions about kernel and I believe we can help a lot of Chinese developers. If we can't deal with some difficult problems, we will certainly ask for help in English list. Several years ago, we once had a chinese mail list which domain is http://zh- kernel.org and many Chinese developer, such as Herbert Xu, Wang Cong, Mingming Cao and Bryan Wu, were active in this list. But, it's very pity that this domain is invalid now. That's why I request a mail list.
Thanks, Hao Lee
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
Following your rationale, there should be separate mailing lists for every kernel hacker language. This would reduce the scope of helpful answers and lessen the motivation to answer with helpful comments at all, as less people are likely to read it. Trivial questions of all kind have been asked and answered on this list. How should a Chinese kernel developer contribute to the kernel if he/she does not feel comfortable to speak English? Due to the above, I feel that there should be only one kernelnewbies mailing list, which accumulates all newbies and people willing to help. Cheers, Moritz
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Schrey, Moritz < moritz.schrey@ias.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Andrey Utkin <andrey_utkin@fastmail.com> wrote:
My vision is that if some nice people of Chinese origination AND qualified as experienced kernel developers would have time and habit to reply newbie questions on kernelnewbies mailing list, they would often reply also to questions posted in English, because - to succeed as kernel dev you must have good English, so good kernel devs all know English well, and - it would be unfair to answer only to your compatriots when a lot of newbies of different nations want help, too.
And what I see happening is that no people with Chinese names are answering the questions here. Most of answers come from Greg Kroah-Hartman, who doesn't speak Chinese I guess. However, I'm watching this list just for two weeks, so my conclusion may be wrong.
Hi, Andrey Utkin
Thanks for your advice. I agree that English is very useful when we discuss kernel problems, but it's also necessary for us to have our native language maillist. With this list, we can talk about various topics, even trivial questions about kernel and I believe we can help a lot of Chinese developers. If we can't deal with some difficult problems, we will certainly ask for help in English list. Several years ago, we once had a chinese mail list which domain is http://zh- kernel.org and many Chinese developer, such as Herbert Xu, Wang Cong, Mingming Cao and Bryan Wu, were active in this list. But, it's very pity that this domain is invalid now. That's why I request a mail list.
Thanks, Hao Lee
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
Following your rationale, there should be separate mailing lists for every kernel hacker language. This would reduce the scope of helpful answers and lessen the motivation to answer with helpful comments at all, as less people are likely to read it.
Trivial questions of all kind have been asked and answered on this list.
How should a Chinese kernel developer contribute to the kernel if he/she does not feel comfortable to speak English?
Due to the above, I feel that there should be only one kernelnewbies mailing list, which accumulates all newbies and people willing to help.
To add to that, this list is already low traffic (3-4 mails per day). I don't know how much traffic a language specific mailing list will generate. Majority of Kernel documentation and pretty much most kernel code comments are in English. Non technical and regional issues may be discussed in regional languages, but I suppose LUGs are more suitable for such conversation compared to a kernel mailing list. That being said, if you have resources to create a mailing list in your language, I don't see a reason why you shouldn't start one yourself and may be add an entry to newbies website. The mention of such entry may or may not be on front page of newbie website, that is something admins of site will decide. Thank -A
On 09/06/2016 08:29 AM, Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar wrote:
I don't see a reason why you shouldn't start one yourself and may be add an entry to newbies website. The mention of such entry may or may not be on front page of newbie website, that is something admins of site will decide.
it doesn't really matter and this is a waste of time. We are not Chinese. If we want a mailing list we just make one and post it on our web pages, we don't ask for permission. If you want a chinese mailing list, go make one.
I agree with Ruben We're opensource developers, when we are not happy with something, we fork it... lol. Still, I'm brazillian and have already found other brazillians at this list. When I want to talk in portuguese I send a message directly to they, no problem at all. If you see some good chinese hacker, talk to him. People are more accessible than we think. 2016-09-06 18:15 GMT-03:00 ruben <ruben@mrbrklyn.com>:
On 09/06/2016 08:29 AM, Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar wrote:
I don't see a reason why you shouldn't start one yourself and may be add an entry to newbies website. The mention of such entry may or may not be on front page of newbie website, that is something admins of site will decide.
it doesn't really matter and this is a waste of time. We are not Chinese. If we want a mailing list we just make one and post it on our web pages, we don't ask for permission. If you want a chinese mailing list, go make one.
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
-- "Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda Master
On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:04:20 -0300, "Daniel." said:
We're opensource developers, when we are not happy with something, we fork it... lol. Still, I'm brazillian and have already found other brazillians at this list.
The problem isn't finding other Brazilians. It's having a sufficiently large collection of Brazilians that you have a reasonable expectation that at least one of them knows the correct answer to the question. For a demonstration of the problem, consider that there are 4,418 people subscribed to this list. Now count up the number of people who actually know the kernel well and reply to questions regularly. It's significantly smaller than 4,418. Probably closer to 40, depending how you define "know the kernel and post regularly". So on the order of 1% or so.... What are the chances that a non-English subset of the list gets at least one Greg KH? What happens on a sub-list that doesn't have a Greg KH? For another worked example, wander around github or sourceforge, and look at how many projects are forks done by somebody who, in the end, didn't have the resources needed to support the fork long-term, resulting in "Freds own version of Wumble" that's still based on the 2007 version of Wumble, and is now 7 major versions behind. For a third worked example - what happened to the *previous* attempt at a Chinese-language version of the list? And how do the people wanting a new version plan to avoid the exact same issues that killed the old one?
ruben <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On 09/06/2016 08:29 AM, Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar wrote:
I don't see a reason why you shouldn't start one yourself and may be add an entry to newbies website. The mention of such entry may or may not be on front page of newbie website, that is something admins of site will decide.
it doesn't really matter and this is a waste of time. We are not Chinese. If we want a mailing list we just make one and post it on our web pages, we don't ask for permission. If you want a chinese mailing list, go make one.
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
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participants (8)
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Andrey Utkin -
Anuz Pratap Singh Tomar -
Daniel. -
Hao Lee -
omar＠omarfarukmunna.tk -
ruben -
Schrey, Moritz -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu