Re: Year 2038 time set problem
On Mar 4, 2018 9:21 PM, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On 03/04/2018 05:24 PM, valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
If you can't afford the disruption of service a reboot causes, you *really* need to be deploying HA or load-balancer solutions.
Because if you can't afford a reboot's worth of 15-20 minutes of downtime, you *really* can't afford the 6-8 hours you're probably going to be down if a chip soldered onto the motherboard/backplane fries.
(All of $DAYJOB's important systems are behind HA or load-balancers, as well as HA-capable storage. Let's just say that some vendors make it easier than others to set up 8+2 RAID6 across 10 separate shelves of storage, and designing mutli-petabyte solutions without single points of failure is harder than it looks :)
These questions always lead into these philosophical discussions as to how I should run my boxes and theoretical flights of opinionated rubbish that I am not interested in. I got the answer to the question I needed and it is very sobering.
I am not setting up a high availability cluster in my house, thank you.
If you don't need high availability, what's the problem with the occasional reboot?
The linux kernel is integrated into dozens of devices which never see the light of day for kernel upgrades from PPOE routers, IOT devices, cellphones, VOIP boxes, electrocardiograms, menu displays for McDonalds, signal boxes on train systems, etc etc etc.
What has been described is a huge security problem and your solution is a non-starter and doesn't help the broader discussion
Device makers don't love updating their devices, I don't see how you could fix that sadly. What's your solution? Regards, Alex
On 03/04/2018 09:35 PM, Alex Arvelaez wrote:
If you don't need high availability, what's the problem with the occasional reboot?
I have a life, and its a chore to reboot the 3 boxes after every upgrade. It runs my phones, my TV, my house security, and my mail and webserver and booting them all is a PIA. If it is raining security holes with every kernel upgrade, that is a big problem, and that is before all these appliances. Advice? Who am I to give advice? On the face of it, I would say they need to harden the kernel base release. But I am not qualified to give anyone advice. If a kernel can't be reasonably secure in a 2 year period, as a consumer I can only be unhappy about it and a bit dismayed. But no one owes me anything. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 10:14:58PM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
Advice? Who am I to give advice? On the face of it, I would say they need to harden the kernel base release. But I am not qualified to give anyone advice. If a kernel can't be reasonably secure in a 2 year period, as a consumer I can only be unhappy about it and a bit dismayed.
Be dismayed, the state of computer security is not there yet, sorry, and it's doubtful that it ever will be (although it keeps getting better...) But seriously, if you have a system that is exposed to the world, you have to change it all the time as the world changes. You don't live in a bubble of a stable ecosystem, no one does. Ok, yes, there are some systems that do. Take for example two of my most favorite examples of the use of Linux: - ballast stabilizer for super-mega-yachts - automatic cow milking machines The first one does not interact with the world in a manner that it needs to be updated regularly, if ever, as communication from it to the kernel comes in through a known "good" channel (i.e. the on-board ship network which had better be firewalled from the world...) Same for the second one. Both of them interact with the physical world very directly (some might say more directly than your laptop or phone), but both do not interact with the digital world much, if at all. And that's the key here. Just keep your systems updated, it's really simple. If you can't do that, then prepare to have those systems be full of known security issues very very quickly. As someone said at a conference recently when they asked the audience about the longest uptime for any of the attendees systems (which turned out to be about 5 years.), "How many security issues were those systems vulnerable to over that period of time? All of them." good luck! greg k-h
On 03/05/2018 01:00 AM, Greg KH wrote:
"How many security issues were those systems vulnerable to over that period of time? All of them."
So I'm understanding. And yet, the kernel is getting harder and harder to manage. It takes hours to just walk through all the choices. I went from using opensuse to using a rolling release of Artix, which is arch based. One of the things I've noticed is that the number of kernel upgrades are brisk, which with opensuse, it was rare for a kernel upgrade. I thought most of these upgrades was updated hardware options and features, and not security. Opensuse would get upset if you didn't use their derivative of the kernel. With Artix, it really seems that kernels get upgraded weekly -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 01:15:03AM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
On 03/05/2018 01:00 AM, Greg KH wrote:
"How many security issues were those systems vulnerable to over that period of time? All of them."
So I'm understanding. And yet, the kernel is getting harder and harder to manage. It takes hours to just walk through all the choices.
You're doing it wrong. Don't ever walk through "all the choices". Take a distro kernel, boot your box, plug in all of the devices you want to support, then do: 'make localmodconfig' in your own kernel drectory and spend 5 minutes building your new kernel and then booting into it.
I went from using opensuse to using a rolling release of Artix, which is arch based. One of the things I've noticed is that the number of kernel upgrades are brisk, which with opensuse, it was rare for a kernel upgrade. I thought most of these upgrades was updated hardware options and features, and not security. Opensuse would get upset if you didn't use their derivative of the kernel.
Then use your distros version of a kernel. opensuse is great, as is arch, and a few other community-based distros, like Fedora. I trust them to get it right with kernel updates. If you don't want to do it yourself, use one of those "big 3" and feel quite comfortable with rebooting every few weeks and all will be fine. thanks, greg k-h
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 07:26:23AM +0100, Greg KH wrote:
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 01:15:03AM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
On 03/05/2018 01:00 AM, Greg KH wrote:
"How many security issues were those systems vulnerable to over that period of time? All of them."
So I'm understanding. And yet, the kernel is getting harder and harder to manage. It takes hours to just walk through all the choices.
You're doing it wrong. Don't ever walk through "all the choices".
Take a distro kernel, boot your box, plug in all of the devices you want to support, then do: 'make localmodconfig'
I did a make oldconfig on a virtual system yesterday and it had pages of choics it considered new. That was on my laptop, a few years old. :(
in your own kernel drectory and spend 5 minutes building your new kernel and then booting into it.
I went from using opensuse to using a rolling release of Artix, which is arch based. One of the things I've noticed is that the number of kernel upgrades are brisk, which with opensuse, it was rare for a kernel upgrade. I thought most of these upgrades was updated hardware options and features, and not security. Opensuse would get upset if you didn't use their derivative of the kernel.
Then use your distros version of a kernel. opensuse is great, as is arch, and a few other community-based distros, like Fedora. I trust them to get it right with kernel updates. If you don't want to do it yourself, use one of those "big 3" and feel quite comfortable with rebooting every few weeks and all will be fine.
thanks,
greg k-h
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
BTW - the problem with rebooting is not kernel problem. Its thinks like my workstation having 40 documents open on it, going back over year I hate to kill my desktop...among other things On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 07:26:23AM +0100, Greg KH wrote:
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 01:15:03AM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
On 03/05/2018 01:00 AM, Greg KH wrote:
"How many security issues were those systems vulnerable to over that period of time? All of them."
So I'm understanding. And yet, the kernel is getting harder and harder to manage. It takes hours to just walk through all the choices.
You're doing it wrong. Don't ever walk through "all the choices".
Take a distro kernel, boot your box, plug in all of the devices you want to support, then do: 'make localmodconfig' in your own kernel drectory and spend 5 minutes building your new kernel and then booting into it.
I went from using opensuse to using a rolling release of Artix, which is arch based. One of the things I've noticed is that the number of kernel upgrades are brisk, which with opensuse, it was rare for a kernel upgrade. I thought most of these upgrades was updated hardware options and features, and not security. Opensuse would get upset if you didn't use their derivative of the kernel.
Then use your distros version of a kernel. opensuse is great, as is arch, and a few other community-based distros, like Fedora. I trust them to get it right with kernel updates. If you don't want to do it yourself, use one of those "big 3" and feel quite comfortable with rebooting every few weeks and all will be fine.
thanks,
greg k-h
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 10:14 PM, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
On 03/04/2018 09:35 PM, Alex Arvelaez wrote:
If you don't need high availability, what's the problem with the occasional reboot?
I have a life, and its a chore to reboot the 3 boxes after every upgrade. It runs my phones, my TV, my house security, and my mail and webserver and booting them all is a PIA. If it is raining security holes with every kernel upgrade, that is a big problem, and that is before all these appliances.
Advice? Who am I to give advice? On the face of it, I would say they need to harden the kernel base release. But I am not qualified to give anyone advice. If a kernel can't be reasonably secure in a 2 year period, as a consumer I can only be unhappy about it and a bit dismayed. But no one owes me anything.
Now might be a good time to bring up some of Robert Morris Sr' advice: turn it off and unplug it . Otherwise, you have to live with the risk and inconveniences. Jeff
On Mon, 2018-03-05 at 02:35 +0000, Alex Arvelaez wrote: [...]
Device makers don't love updating their devices, I don't see how you could fix that sadly. What's your solution?
It's much worse for varying reasons. And why should "we" (whoever that is) fix the problems of others? The upstream can't do anything directly if the downstream simply refuses to update (if there are fixes to real threats) and/or reboot (if it's the kernel). MfG, Bernd -- Bernd Petrovitsch Email : bernd@petrovitsch.priv.at LUGA : http://www.luga.at
On 03/05/2018 06:29 AM, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
And why should "we" (whoever that is) fix the problems of others?
The upstream can't do anything directly if the downstream simply refuses to update (if there are fixes to real threats) and/or reboot (if it's the kernel).
So any system where you need to, or want to install it and forget about it for a long period of time, the Linux kernel can not be considered a choice for that usage because it needs contact oversite and upgrades. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 07:20:35 -0500, Ruben Safir said:
So any system where you need to, or want to install it and forget about it for a long period of time, the Linux kernel can not be considered a choice for that usage because it needs contact oversite and upgrades.
That's true for *any* software. Guess you get to build it out of cogs and levers. vxworks has bugs too: https://www.cvedetails.com/product/15063/Windriver-Vxworks.html?vendor_id=95 And I'm willing to bet a large pizza with everything but anchovies that the Vxworks total would be higher if it had enough market share to make it worth researching. Oh, and somebody found a 30 year old bug in VMS recently.
On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 07:20:35AM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
On 03/05/2018 06:29 AM, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
And why should "we" (whoever that is) fix the problems of others?
The upstream can't do anything directly if the downstream simply refuses to update (if there are fixes to real threats) and/or reboot (if it's the kernel).
So any system where you need to, or want to install it and forget about it for a long period of time, the Linux kernel can not be considered a choice for that usage because it needs contact oversite and upgrades.
No kernel can be considered for such a choice, this is not unique to Linux or any other operating system, sorry. good luck!
participants (6)
-
Alex Arvelaez -
Bernd Petrovitsch -
Greg KH -
Jeffrey Walton -
Ruben Safir -
valdis.kletnieks＠vt.edu