from CoLinux to MoreLinux :D
Hello. maybe someone of you know the old project called "coLinux" : Cooperative Linux is the first working free and open source method for optimally running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively. More generally, Cooperative Linux (short-named coLinux) is a port of the Linux kernel that allows it to run cooperatively alongside another operating system on a single machine. For instance, it allows one to freely run Linux on Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7, without using a commercial PC virtualization software such as VMware, in a way which is much more optimal than using any general purpose PC virtualization software. In its current condition, it allows us to run the KNOPPIX Japanese Edition on Windows. CoLinux is very old and not maintained for a lot of time and I'm not interested in resurrecting it (and I don't have the competences to do it),BUT I'm interested to gather some information about a similar project that I have in mind. What about if,instead of having a Linux kernel which can run Windows cooperatively,we have a Linux kernel that can run more Linux distributions (maybe only 2 as a starting point,as CoLinux already does) at the same time,without using virtualization software ? Is the technology behind Colinux the same that's under the lxc or docker containers or the WSL2 subsystem ? What are the differences ? I don't use WSL2,I don't use Windows so much. I like Linux and FreeBSD. So,an even nicer idea is to create a coLinux variant that allows the Linux kernel to cooperate with FreeBSD. This is even nicer than making a cooperation between 2 Linuxes. -- Mario.
On 03.12.23 19:58, Mario Marietto wrote:
Hello.
maybe someone of you know the old project called "coLinux" :
Cooperative Linux is the first working free and open source method for optimally running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively. More generally, Cooperative Linux (short-named coLinux) is a port of the Linux kernel that allows it to run cooperatively alongside another operating system on a single machine. For instance, it allows one to freely run Linux on Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7, without using a commercial PC virtualization software such as VMware, in a way which is much more optimal than using any general purpose PC virtualization software. In its current condition, it allows us to run the KNOPPIX Japanese Edition on Windows.
CoLinux is very old and not maintained for a lot of time and I'm not interested in resurrecting it (and I don't have the competences to do it),BUT I'm interested to gather some information about a similar project that I have in mind. What about if,instead of having a Linux kernel which can run Windows cooperatively,we have a Linux kernel that can run more Linux distributions (maybe only 2 as a starting point,as CoLinux already does) at the same time,without using virtualization software ? Check out: User Mode Linux
Is the technology behind Colinux the same that's under the lxc or docker containers No
or the WSL2 subsystem ? No
What are the differences ?
With LXC you still have just one Linux kernels, but for processes it "feels" like they have their own kernel "alone" but actually they are just isolated from the other processes. The kernel got better in providing processes own seperated "environments". WSL is bascially using a VM
I don't use WSL2,I don't use Windows so much. I like Linux and FreeBSD. So,an even nicer idea is to create a coLinux variant that allows the Linux kernel to cooperate with FreeBSD. This is even nicer than making a cooperation between 2 Linuxes.
I don't really see why (except for engineering curiosity maybe) but google, maybe there is something like this, you might also like Debian GNU k FreeBSD -- Richard
-- Mario.
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
Development of Debian GNU/kFreeBSD ended in July 2023 because no one was interested anymore to develop it. On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 3:06 AM Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org> wrote:
On 03.12.23 19:58, Mario Marietto wrote:
Hello.
maybe someone of you know the old project called "coLinux" :
Cooperative Linux is the first working free and open source method for optimally running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively. More generally, Cooperative Linux (short-named coLinux) is a port of the Linux kernel that allows it to run cooperatively alongside another operating system on a single machine. For instance, it allows one to freely run Linux on Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7, without using a commercial PC virtualization software such as VMware, in a way which is much more optimal than using any general purpose PC virtualization software. In its current condition, it allows us to run the KNOPPIX Japanese Edition on Windows.
CoLinux is very old and not maintained for a lot of time and I'm not interested in resurrecting it (and I don't have the competences to do it),BUT I'm interested to gather some information about a similar project that I have in mind. What about if,instead of having a Linux kernel which can run Windows cooperatively,we have a Linux kernel that can run more Linux distributions (maybe only 2 as a starting point,as CoLinux already does) at the same time,without using virtualization software ? Check out: User Mode Linux
Is the technology behind Colinux the same that's under the lxc or docker containers No
or the WSL2 subsystem ? No
What are the differences ?
With LXC you still have just one Linux kernels, but for processes it "feels" like they have their own kernel "alone" but actually they are just isolated from the other processes. The kernel got better in providing processes own seperated "environments".
WSL is bascially using a VM
I don't use WSL2,I don't use Windows so much. I like Linux and FreeBSD. So,an even nicer idea is to create a coLinux variant that allows the Linux kernel to cooperate with FreeBSD. This is even nicer than making a cooperation between 2 Linuxes.
I don't really see why (except for engineering curiosity maybe) but google, maybe there is something like this, you might also like Debian GNU k FreeBSD
-- Richard
-- Mario.
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
-- Mario.
What is this ? https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ It seems to me that it does what Colinux did a lot of time ago,but it works even on more cpu architectures. Am I wrong ? With l4linux I can run multiple linux distros using the same kernel. I'm very curious to try it on my ARM machine,since there is even a version for arm 32 and arm 64 bit. It sounds interesting. On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 9:57 AM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
Development of Debian GNU/kFreeBSD ended in July 2023 because no one was interested anymore to develop it.
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 3:06 AM Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org> wrote:
On 03.12.23 19:58, Mario Marietto wrote:
Hello.
maybe someone of you know the old project called "coLinux" :
Cooperative Linux is the first working free and open source method for optimally running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively. More generally, Cooperative Linux (short-named coLinux) is a port of the Linux kernel that allows it to run cooperatively alongside another operating system on a single machine. For instance, it allows one to freely run Linux on Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7, without using a commercial PC virtualization software such as VMware, in a way which is much more optimal than using any general purpose PC virtualization software. In its current condition, it allows us to run the KNOPPIX Japanese Edition on Windows.
CoLinux is very old and not maintained for a lot of time and I'm not interested in resurrecting it (and I don't have the competences to do it),BUT I'm interested to gather some information about a similar project that I have in mind. What about if,instead of having a Linux kernel which can run Windows cooperatively,we have a Linux kernel that can run more Linux distributions (maybe only 2 as a starting point,as CoLinux already does) at the same time,without using virtualization software ? Check out: User Mode Linux
Is the technology behind Colinux the same that's under the lxc or docker containers No
or the WSL2 subsystem ? No
What are the differences ?
With LXC you still have just one Linux kernels, but for processes it "feels" like they have their own kernel "alone" but actually they are just isolated from the other processes. The kernel got better in providing processes own seperated "environments".
WSL is bascially using a VM
I don't use WSL2,I don't use Windows so much. I like Linux and FreeBSD. So,an even nicer idea is to create a coLinux variant that allows the Linux kernel to cooperate with FreeBSD. This is even nicer than making
a
cooperation between 2 Linuxes.
I don't really see why (except for engineering curiosity maybe) but google, maybe there is something like this, you might also like Debian GNU k FreeBSD
-- Richard
-- Mario.
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
-- Mario.
-- Mario.
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
What is this ?
https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/
Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd. theres also https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html
With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros using the same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about virtualization and because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a process under FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels. On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
What is this ?
https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/
Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd.
theres also https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html
-- Mario.
Infact from Wikipedia I can read : L4Linux also allows setting up a virtualized <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization> environment vaguely similar to Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen> or Kernel-based Virtual Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> (KVM), but a few significant differences exist between the intent of Xen and L4Linux. With Redox can I do the same ? On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 9:11 AM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros using the same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about virtualization and because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a process under FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels.
On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
What is this ?
https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/
Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd.
theres also https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html
-- Mario.
-- Mario.
On 08.12.23 09:11, Mario Marietto wrote:
With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros using the same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about virtualization and because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a process under FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels.
Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel. From all your questions I think it would be helpful to read up on some Operating System Theory before you go on. I can recommend "Operating Systems - Three Easy Pieces" (https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... ) It's almost as good as the Tanenbaum Classic, but free. -- Richard
On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>> wrote: > > What is this ? > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> >
Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd.
theres also https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>
-- Mario.
Ok but then what it means what I read below (taken from wikipedia) : L4Linux also allows setting up a virtualized <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization> environment vaguely similar to Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen> or Kernel-bas <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> ed Virtual Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> (KVM), but a few significant differences exist between the intent of Xen and L4Linux. Il ven 8 dic 2023, 12:13 Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org> ha scritto:
On 08.12.23 09:11, Mario Marietto wrote:
With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros using the same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about virtualization and because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a process under FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels.
Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel. From all your questions I think it would be helpful to read up on some Operating System Theory before you go on. I can recommend "Operating Systems - Three Easy Pieces" ( https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... )
It's almost as good as the Tanenbaum Classic, but free.
-- Richard
On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>> wrote: > > What is this ? > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> >
Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd.
theres also https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>
-- Mario.
---> Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel Can you give a look here ? https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ where it says : "You are free to use any Linux distribution you like, or even BSDs or any of its derivatives" On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok but then what it means what I read below (taken from wikipedia) :
L4Linux also allows setting up a virtualized <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization> environment vaguely similar to Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen> or Kernel-bas <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> ed Virtual Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> (KVM), but a few significant differences exist between the intent of Xen and L4Linux.
Il ven 8 dic 2023, 12:13 Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org> ha scritto:
On 08.12.23 09:11, Mario Marietto wrote:
With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros using the same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about virtualization and because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a process under FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels.
Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel. From all your questions I think it would be helpful to read up on some Operating System Theory before you go on. I can recommend "Operating Systems - Three Easy Pieces" ( https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... )
It's almost as good as the Tanenbaum Classic, but free.
-- Richard
On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>> wrote: > > What is this ? > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> >
Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd.
theres also https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>
-- Mario.
-- Mario.
I looked at this, L4 is a family of Microkernels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family L4Re is a project to let other operating system kernels run as processes on top of a L4 Kernel. But they are still monolithic kernels even when you run them on top of another kernel. Actually all this is similar to Xen. Since you are interested in those things I would really recommend reading one of the textbooks. "Modern Operating Systems" by Tanenbaum even has a chapter on exactly this it's called "Are hypervisors microkernels done right?" -- Richard On 09.12.23 14:24, Mario Marietto wrote:
---> Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel
Can you give a look here ?
https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/>
where it says :
"You are free to use any Linux distribution you like, or even BSDs or any of its derivatives"
On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok but then what it means what I read below (taken from wikipedia) :
^L4 Linux also allows setting up a virtualized <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization> environment vaguely similar to Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen> or Kernel-bas <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> ed Virtual Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> (KVM), but a few significant differences exist^// between the intent of Xen and L^4 Linux.
Il ven 8 dic 2023, 12:13 Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org>> ha scritto:
On 08.12.23 09:11, Mario Marietto wrote: > With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros using the > same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about virtualization and > because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows > What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a process under > FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels.
Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel. From all your questions I think it would be helpful to read up on some Operating System Theory before you go on. I can recommend "Operating Systems - Three Easy Pieces" (https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... <https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas...> )
It's almost as good as the Tanenbaum Classic, but free.
-- Richard
> > > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com> > <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto > <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > > > What is this ? > > > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/>> > > > > Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd. > > theres also > https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html> > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>> > > > > -- > Mario.
-- Mario.
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. Actually we are trying to boot FreeBSD with xen on our arm 32 Chromebook. But if it fails we could try L4Linux. Yes,they say that's similar to xen,but with some important differences that I haven't read and understood yet. Thanks for your invitation to read. Yes,I'm very interested in all the virtualization stuff all around,but I'm not sure that reading a complicated book will help me. My training at the college has been totally different,I'm a psychologist. Do you think that one can be able to learn by himself how an operating system works by reading and studying a book found on the Internet,with the support of a teacher ? Do you think that we can remove colleges from the face of the earth ? On Sat, Dec 9, 2023 at 8:01 PM Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org> wrote:
I looked at this,
L4 is a family of Microkernels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family
L4Re is a project to let other operating system kernels run as processes on top of a L4 Kernel. But they are still monolithic kernels even when you run them on top of another kernel. Actually all this is similar to Xen.
Since you are interested in those things I would really recommend reading one of the textbooks. "Modern Operating Systems" by Tanenbaum even has a chapter on exactly this it's called "Are hypervisors microkernels done right?"
-- Richard
On 09.12.23 14:24, Mario Marietto wrote:
---> Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel
Can you give a look here ?
https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ < https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/>
where it says :
"You are free to use any Linux distribution you like, or even BSDs or any of its derivatives"
On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok but then what it means what I read below (taken from wikipedia) :
^L4 Linux also allows setting up a virtualized <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization> environment vaguely similar to Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen> or Kernel-bas <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> ed Virtual Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> (KVM), but a few significant differences exist^// between the intent of Xen and L^4 Linux.
Il ven 8 dic 2023, 12:13 Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org>> ha scritto:
On 08.12.23 09:11, Mario Marietto wrote: > With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros using the > same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about virtualization and > because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows > What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a process under > FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels.
Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel. From all your questions I think it would be helpful to read up on some Operating System Theory before you go on. I can recommend "Operating Systems - Three Easy Pieces" ( https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... < https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas...
)
It's almost as good as the Tanenbaum Classic, but free.
-- Richard
> > > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com> > <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto > <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > > > What is this ? > > > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/>> > > > > Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd. > > theres also > https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html> > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>> > > > > -- > Mario.
-- Mario.
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
-- Mario.
Errata corrige : without the support of a teacher. On Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 1:02 AM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. Actually we are trying to boot FreeBSD with xen on our arm 32 Chromebook. But if it fails we could try L4Linux. Yes,they say that's similar to xen,but with some important differences that I haven't read and understood yet. Thanks for your invitation to read. Yes,I'm very interested in all the virtualization stuff all around,but I'm not sure that reading a complicated book will help me. My training at the college has been totally different,I'm a psychologist. Do you think that one can be able to learn by himself how an operating system works by reading and studying a book found on the Internet,with the support of a teacher ? Do you think that we can remove colleges from the face of the earth ?
On Sat, Dec 9, 2023 at 8:01 PM Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org> wrote:
I looked at this,
L4 is a family of Microkernels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family
L4Re is a project to let other operating system kernels run as processes on top of a L4 Kernel. But they are still monolithic kernels even when you run them on top of another kernel. Actually all this is similar to Xen.
Since you are interested in those things I would really recommend reading one of the textbooks. "Modern Operating Systems" by Tanenbaum even has a chapter on exactly this it's called "Are hypervisors microkernels done right?"
-- Richard
On 09.12.23 14:24, Mario Marietto wrote:
---> Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel
Can you give a look here ?
https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ < https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/>
where it says :
"You are free to use any Linux distribution you like, or even BSDs or any of its derivatives"
On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok but then what it means what I read below (taken from wikipedia) :
^L4 Linux also allows setting up a virtualized <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization> environment vaguely similar to Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen> or Kernel-bas <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> ed Virtual Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine> (KVM), but a few significant differences exist^// between the intent of Xen and L^4 Linux.
Il ven 8 dic 2023, 12:13 Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org>> ha scritto:
On 08.12.23 09:11, Mario Marietto wrote: > With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros using the > same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about virtualization and > because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows > What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a process under > FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels.
Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel. From all your questions I think it would be helpful to read up on some Operating System Theory before you go on. I can recommend "Operating Systems - Three Easy Pieces" ( https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... < https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas...
)
It's almost as good as the Tanenbaum Classic, but free.
-- Richard
> > > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com> > <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto > <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com
wrote: > > > > What is this ? > > > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/>> > > > > Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd. > > theres also > https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html> > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>> > > > > -- > Mario.
-- Mario.
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-- Mario.
-- Mario.
On 10.12.23 01:02, Mario Marietto wrote:
Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. Actually we are trying to boot FreeBSD with xen on our arm 32 Chromebook. But if it fails we could try L4Linux. Yes,they say that's similar to xen,but with some important differences that I haven't read and understood yet.
This is pure speculation because I don't have time to dig deeper into L4Linux but I think the whole solution will be worse than Xen. When Linux is really run as a process this means: a) It's likely that it's an adopted version of the linux kernel so it's likely also old b) A process is a strictly defined thing with a clearly defined API that is actually designed to do very different things, the things an OS Kernel does might fit very bad into that meaning that a lot of the behaviour might have to use workaround and might be quite imperformant. For example the linux kernel is multithreaded and different kernel threads can talk to each other quite easily, can they do the same on L4? Might be difficult.
Thanks for your invitation to read. Yes,I'm very interested in all the virtualization stuff all around,but I'm not sure that reading a complicated book will help me.
I'm actually sure about that and the answer is no. But "Modern Operating Systems" is no complicated book, it's a very easy to read introduction for beginners, usually it's read by undergraduate students that have never programmed before.
My training at the college has been totally different,I'm a psychologist. Do you think that one can be able to learn by himself how an operating system works by reading and studying a book found on the Internet,without the support of a teacher ?
Yes, given enough motivation and work ethic. I've never heard even one university course on linux kernel programming, my university degree was mostly about math
Do you think that we can remove colleges from the face of the earth ?
No, because lots of people don't have enough motivation, work ethic or structure, actually I think the benefit of colleges / universities is not really the subject but teaching people the skills to actually acquire knowledge themselves and abstract thinking. -- Richard
On Sat, Dec 9, 2023 at 8:01 PM Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org>> wrote:
I looked at this,
L4 is a family of Microkernels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family>
L4Re is a project to let other operating system kernels run as processes on top of a L4 Kernel. But they are still monolithic kernels even when you run them on top of another kernel. Actually all this is similar to Xen.
Since you are interested in those things I would really recommend reading one of the textbooks. "Modern Operating Systems" by Tanenbaum even has a chapter on exactly this it's called "Are hypervisors microkernels done right?"
-- Richard
On 09.12.23 14:24, Mario Marietto wrote: > ---> Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel > > Can you give a look here ? > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/> <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/>> > > where it says : > > "You are free to use any Linux distribution you like, or even BSDs or > any of its derivatives" > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> > <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > Ok but then what it means what I read below (taken from wikipedia) : > > ^L4 Linux also allows setting up a virtualized > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization>> environment vaguely > similar to Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen>> or Kernel-bas > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine>> > ed Virtual Machine > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine>> (KVM), > but a few significant differences exist^// between the intent of Xen > and L^4 Linux. > > Il ven 8 dic 2023, 12:13 Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org> > <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org>>> ha scritto: > > > > On 08.12.23 09:11, Mario Marietto wrote: > > With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux distros > using the > > same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about > virtualization and > > because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows > > What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as a > process under > > FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels. > > Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel. From all your > questions I > think it would be helpful to read up on some Operating System > Theory > before you go on. I can recommend "Operating Systems - Three Easy > Pieces" > (https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... <https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas...> <https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... <https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_easy_pieces.pdf>> > ) > > It's almost as good as the Tanenbaum Classic, but free. > > -- Richard > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com> > <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>> > > <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com> <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>>>> > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto > > <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>> > <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>>>> > wrote: > > > > > > What is this ? > > > > > > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/>> > > > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/>>> > > > > > > > Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd. > > > > theres also > > https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html> > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>> > > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html> > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>>> > > > > > > > > -- > > Mario. > > > > -- > Mario. > > _______________________________________________ > Kernelnewbies mailing list > Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org <mailto:Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org> > https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies <https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies>
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org <mailto:Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org> https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies <https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies>
-- Mario.
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----> a) It's likely that it's an adopted version of the linux kernel so it's likely also old Are you sure that you gave a fast read to this page ? ---> https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ They say : You are free to use any Linux distribution you like, or even BSDs or any of its derivatives. But then you should know the game. Especially tool versions should be recent, as installed on the listed distributions below. We are confident that the snapshot works on the following distributions: - Debian 11 or later - Ubuntu 22.04 or later so,it seems that they found a way to use an updated linux version. Unfortunately they don't talk about FreeBSD. It deserves more research,because this is what I'm interested in. On Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 4:58 AM Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org> wrote:
On 10.12.23 01:02, Mario Marietto wrote:
Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. Actually we are trying to boot FreeBSD with xen on our arm 32 Chromebook. But if it fails we could try L4Linux. Yes,they say that's similar to xen,but with some important differences that I haven't read and understood yet.
This is pure speculation because I don't have time to dig deeper into L4Linux but I think the whole solution will be worse than Xen. When Linux is really run as a process this means:
a) It's likely that it's an adopted version of the linux kernel so it's likely also old
b) A process is a strictly defined thing with a clearly defined API that is actually designed to do very different things, the things an OS Kernel does might fit very bad into that meaning that a lot of the behaviour might have to use workaround and might be quite imperformant. For example the linux kernel is multithreaded and different kernel threads can talk to each other quite easily, can they do the same on L4? Might be difficult.
Thanks for your invitation to read. Yes,I'm very interested in all the virtualization stuff all around,but I'm not sure that reading a complicated book will help me.
I'm actually sure about that and the answer is no. But "Modern Operating Systems" is no complicated book, it's a very easy to read introduction for beginners, usually it's read by undergraduate students that have never programmed before.
My training at the college has been totally different,I'm a psychologist. Do you think that one can be able to learn by himself how an operating system works by reading and studying a book found on the Internet,without the support of a teacher ?
Yes, given enough motivation and work ethic. I've never heard even one university course on linux kernel programming, my university degree was mostly about math
Do you think that we can remove colleges from the face of the earth ?
No, because lots of people don't have enough motivation, work ethic or structure, actually I think the benefit of colleges / universities is not really the subject but teaching people the skills to actually acquire knowledge themselves and abstract thinking.
-- Richard
On Sat, Dec 9, 2023 at 8:01 PM Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org>> wrote:
I looked at this,
L4 is a family of Microkernels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family>
L4Re is a project to let other operating system kernels run as processes on top of a L4 Kernel. But they are still monolithic kernels even
when
you run them on top of another kernel. Actually all this is similar to Xen.
Since you are interested in those things I would really recommend reading one of the textbooks. "Modern Operating Systems" by Tanenbaum even has a chapter on exactly this it's called "Are hypervisors microkernels done right?"
-- Richard
On 09.12.23 14:24, Mario Marietto wrote: > ---> Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel > > Can you give a look here ? > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/> <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/>> > > where it says : > > "You are free to use any Linux distribution you like, or even BSDs or > any of its derivatives" > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> > <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > Ok but then what it means what I read below (taken from wikipedia) : > > ^L4 Linux also allows setting up a virtualized > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization>> environment vaguely > similar to Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen>> or Kernel-bas > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine>> > ed Virtual Machine > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine>> (KVM), > but a few significant differences exist^// between the intent of Xen > and L^4 Linux. > > Il ven 8 dic 2023, 12:13 Richard <richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:
richard_siegfried@systemli.org>
> <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org <mailto:richard_siegfried@systemli.org>>> ha scritto: > > > > On 08.12.23 09:11, Mario Marietto wrote: > > With l4linux (or redox) can I boot and run 2 linux
distros
> using the > > same kernel ? I ask because the developers talk about > virtualization and > > because CoLinux allows us to boot Linux while using Windows > > What I'm very interested to achieve is to run Linux as
a
> process under > > FreeBSD or vice versa,using the best of those two microkernels. > > Neither FreeBSD nor Linux has a microkernel. From all your > questions I > think it would be helpful to read up on some Operating
System
> Theory > before you go on. I can recommend "Operating Systems - Three Easy > Pieces" > (
https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... < https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas...> < https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas... < https://techiefood4u.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/operating_systems_three_eas...
> ) > > It's almost as good as the Tanenbaum Classic, but free. > > -- Richard > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:15 AM <jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com> > <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com
> > <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com> <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com <mailto:jim.cromie@gmail.com>>>> > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:02 PM Mario Marietto > > <marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>> > <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com> <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com <mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com>>>> > wrote: > > > > > > What is this ? > > > > > > > https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/>> > > > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/> > <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/ <https://l4re.org/download/snapshots/pre-built-images/arm-v7/>>> > > > > > > > Thats a micro-kernel, sort of like GNU Hurd. > > > > theres also > > https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html> > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>> > > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html> > <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html <https://doc.redox-os.org/book/ch04-01-microkernels.html>>> > > > > > > > > -- > > Mario. > > > > -- > Mario. > > _______________________________________________ > Kernelnewbies mailing list > Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org <mailto:Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org> > https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies <https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies>
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org <mailto: Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org> https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies <https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies>
-- Mario.
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
_______________________________________________ Kernelnewbies mailing list Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
-- Mario.
participants (3)
-
jim.cromie＠gmail.com -
Mario Marietto -
Richard